No more Streetcars

[vonsharpness]

Streetcars should be eliminated from Toronto streets unless there is a dedicated streetcar track. Using Queen and King streets as examples, streetcars have the net effect of slowing the flow of traffic at every stop due to passenger pick-up and drop off, cutting off all lanes of road traffic. If they were able to pull over, like buses, the problem would not exist. All streetcars should be replaced with electric buses like Vancouver. The don’t move as many people at one time, but offer greater flexibility by not being limited by the need for tracks. The smaller size of buses would mean that in non-peak hours, large streetcars would not be traveling city streets empty.

Cost would be greatly reduced for maintenance of both streetcars and more significantly our city streets. This is a huge factor that never seems to get mentioned. What is the cost, both financial and economic to the time and money it takes to repair and replace the tracks! This summer Church and Queen had serious traffic restriction in all directions for several months as a result of track reconstruction. No wonder there is a constant TTC budget deficit. Toronto winters will continue to offer a very short lifespan to tracks and so will continue the long and pain replace of streetcar tracks.

To those who can’t let go of the historic novelty of the streetcars I suggest the time has for change. They are a fiscally irresponsible form of public transit for our city. Any ‘green’ benefit is negated by, construction and maintenance of tracks, traffic congestion and idling of cars at both streetcar stops and from construction activity. Get the Red Rocket off the road and put it where it belongs – in the ROM.

[SolisV]

I find it funny that although we all complain about the raise in fares, we all say how the TTC should do this, and do that, and spend money here, and there. They already have a huge project in the works (ie transit city). The streets of downtown are already so tight. How do you suppose they could make room for dedicated stopping lanes for your proposed buses?

[vonsharpness]

Sorry if my post wasn't clear. I'm suggesting keeping the dedicated streetcar tracks of Spadina, St. Clair and Queens Quay etc, and doing away with all other tracks. In using buses like in Vancouver, they would pull over to existing TTC stops, but right to the curb allow traffic to continue to flow on the outside lane, keeping riders safe from loading and unloading into active traffic lanes and eliminating track reconstruction cost and resulting traffic issues.

[BOOIS]

Ok I just had to comment on this topic.

I have an anecdote I need to share because it just happened a week or two ago (Jan 2009).
I use Dundas West station, and I work downtown. Most days I used the subway, but when I can no longer stand the drudgery of the dark tunnels and solemn faces, I will experiment with the 505 streetcar which runs along Dundas. If you get on at the start, you always get a seat, and it's bright and has windows. It terminates in the West at DW station, and in the East at Broadview I believe....

One morning, I pass the turnstiles, and head outside to the bus/streetcar section of the station. I see there's two 505 streetcars waiting to leave. I rushed along to catch the first one but saw it close the doors and drive away when I was less than 50 feet away. I thought: 'well, fine, there's another one waiting right after, no big deal." So I get on the 2nd streetcar, and sit down. The new driver is rambling to someone on his phone, and barely acknowledges me.

After being seated for about 30 seconds, the driver closes the doors and drives away! Remember, the 1st streetcar just left 1 minute before that. And as I look out on the platform, there is some poor guy very visibly running to catch the streetcar I'm on. The driver doesn't care, he just bolts away with the streetcar completely empty (except for me).

This example shows how spaced out and careless the drivers are. Passengers are an afterthought. They should definitely be fired. They're getting paid to follow a schedule, and pick up passengers, not drive away on people when they feel like it.

Also, with behavior like this, it's no wonder why the TTC have 'bunching' problems where you see many streetcars in a row, and nothing else afterwards for a long time.

I should also mention, on the topic of Dundas West station, almost every morning I see two sluggish workers sitting in the ticket window chatting. Or sometimes the booth is empty because the morbidly obese ticket taker is gone on break or somewhere else. Also, why did it take like 3 months to fix the doors into the station?

I hate the TTC!!!!!

[AClarke]

I love public transit. I love riding trains and subways. I love walking, cycling and rollerblading. I've lived in Tokyo, New York and other cities around the world. And, despite the streetcars, I love living in Toronto. But I have to say: I really hate streetcars and I'm appauled by the $$millions$$ of dollars that the City is spending on more streetcars.

Seriously. I'm reminded of a Swedish urban planner that I met who flew to Alberta to figure out who they deal with the cold. He arrived and he could see that all the streets with straight. In Sweden, they learned decades ago that straight streets don't block the wind so they don't provide shelter. Cities with straight streets feel colder. But the Albertans didn't clue into that. When the Swedes realized that the Albertans hadn't gotten that far, it was pretty obvious that they wouldn't learn anything new.

Streetcars are a symbol of backwards thinking in Toronto. They tell the world that Torontonians think short-term and invest in bloated companies like Bombardier instead of thinking long-term about their subway. Streetcars are anti-cyclist. I'm waiting for accidents along the St Clair canyon and other similar canyons that the city is building to accomodate streetcars. I hope the individuals launch a Class Action lawsuit so the whole project is ripped up. It's a disaster waiting to happen.

I could go on but that's basically why I HATE streetcars.

[4500]

I like streetcars.

It would take three buses to replace two CLRVs. So that's 294 buses. Then you have to factor in the 52 ALRVs.

Plus the TTC isn't going to get rid of their three historic streetcars anytime soon. St. Clair used to be private ROW until it was removed. The line needs to have its tracks replaced anyway. The whole SOS people just delayed the project costing TTC money.

[vonsharpness]

To be clear, I like streetcars as well from a rider perspective. That isn’t the issue. The issue is the overall financial infrastructure expense to keep the streetcars running (track maintenance,) as well as the traffic congestion that results from stops on lines such as King and Queen St. The streetcars are effective at moving large numbers of people for about 25% of the day during rush hour. Outside of that period, they run more that half empty. Doesn’t make sense. Cutting off all lanes of traffic for at stops doesn’t make sense. Electric buses and subway expansion make sense.

[streetcarssuck]

I agree that streetcars are awful and should be permanently retired. Even streetcars on dedicated lanes are terrible. I even hate them from a rider perspective (except for the fact that I can use my cell phone on them). I once sat on a stationary streetcar for almost 10 minutes while the driver got off to get breakfast at McDonalds, holding up traffic and riders at the intersection of Queen and Church.

And as for what 4500 has to say about liking streetcars and blaming SOS for the St. Clair streetcar disaster, I recommend reading this recent article and this follow-up editorial. You will then see that SOS was just one (small) of many much larger problems that caused the St. Clair delay, and that the TTC's disorganization was primarily to blame.

What we need is some long-term planning from our different levels of government and an investment in new SUBWAY lines.

Check out my rant "tirade to a streetcar" for more reasons why we should all loathe the streetcar...

[Eggbert]

I too am soooo tired of the streetcars and the congestion they cause. I am a cyclist the majority of the time and find the traffic caused by street cars stopping and effectively closing the right lane of traffic for loading and unloading of passengers creates a real hazzard. The car drivers that are held up as a result, become very frustrated and that seems to affect driving behavior of motorists. That frustration translates into aggressive driving as they rush to make up time from the rush hour traffic created by the streetcars and makes biking more dangerous.
The tracks pose there own problems as does the constant construction and maintainance. Church street was a mess for months making it usuable for cyclists. I'd much rather see some of the money going into streetcars be used for better and more extensive bike lanes. Most of all I'd like to see the TTC stop wasting money on more cost effective form of public transit.

[Doug Earl]

More street cars! Tons more! If they clog up the "traffic" on King and Queen, then get rid of the "traffic".
Make King and Queen streetcar-only streets. Cars can use Richmond and Adelaide.
Please remember that streetcars ARE traffic. Huge cars one-fourth the size of a streetcar that carry only one passenger
are lunacy. They should be banned from the core. Ditto giant trucks that park on bike lanes and generally block traffic.
Make businesses use smaller electric vehicles to accept deliveries.

[xinit]

I like the dedicated lanes and signalling along Spadina - more convenient and safe boarding that at the corners downtown in traffic.

I really like the streetcars, though I look forward to the new ones...

[kennedy&eglinton]

As a rider who lives in Scarborough, I can tell you that removing streetcars and using buses instead won't help traffic congestion or improve services.

Believe it or not, streetcars are actually more regular than buses. All of those upsides - being able to change lanes, go with the flow of traffic, et cetera - just mean that in the real world, buses have less control to be on time.

I can't count the number of routes and times I've waited at a stop for 30 minutes (during peak hours) to have three buses show up at the same time.

I also think that if we're talking about 'going backwards' then we shouldn't be looking at making it easier for cars downtown. It should be more difficult for them so people will stop driving cars downtown. Then we don't want to worry about cyclists being endangered, or traffic congestion.

[Maggiemay]

I had to laugh at your comment because I came up with an acronym for MY idea, which is to get cars off major streetcar routes! Toronto is a big city with a lot of people needing to go to a lot of places, and the cars - usually carrying only one person - slow down the streetcars. It's time to clear the road of single vehicle traffic, particulary since in addition to slowing traffic, drivers are running pedestrians over left and right. I predict cars won't even be allowed on core downtown streets by 2020, so enjoy the chaos while you can.

[Eggbert]

Build a subway for Queen street: from the end of the Danforth , down Kingston road to the Beach, east to High Park and back up to Bloor. Get with the times and go below ground to effectively move people in this increasing congested city, instead of wasting all this money on new streetcars, and rebuilding tracks.

[LawrenceRider54]

Building a subway along Queen Street would probably require an extensive overhaul of that general area. Are you willing to suffer some more tax or fare hikes to pay for it? I doubt the Government will fund the whole thing.

[dandmb50]

Is there anyone out there that agrees what has been done to St. Clair Ave with the ROW (right of way) streetcar lanes? I think it has become one of the biggest debacle this city has ever seen. If you are driving north on Avenue Rd and try to turn left at St Clair the advanced green allows about 1.5 cars through and even after they put in the ROW they did not allow enough time to turn on the advanced green. It usually takes about 4-5 lights before you can turn left now and because St. Clair is cut off from neighborhood traffic you cannot cut through the area to get to St Clair. I also read somewhere that the ROW increases the speed of the streetcars for the length of the line about 4-5 minutes but disturbs car traffic by about 30 minutes. And what about all the independent stores along St. Clair, I'm sure many of those have closed through this long process. Does anyone remember all the problems along Queens Quay when they put in the ROW? For the first year there were tons of accidents as people tried to cross the ROW and made U-turns everywhere.



I like streetcars just don't like these ROW lanes.

[bramblerose1]

I like the streetcars, but from what I see, the TTC and the city haven't worked out the right traffic management. During rush hours, there should be NO LEFT TURNS along the route (and there should be no right turns on bus lanes during rush hours, either).

Streetcars carry more passengers than buses. Imagine how much more pollution would be generated by buses, since two buses would be required to replace one regular sized street car, and at least five buses for every two of the artics. If you've ever walked along Eglinton Avenue eastbound from Yonge St., you'll know what I mean. Bus after bus after bus, all spewing mountains of diesel exhaust and particulates into the air.

The biggest problem with streetcars are the drivers. That's because driving a streetcar is an 'entry level' job - the top job being a subway driver. Drivers hate being at the helm of streetcars, and it shows with their attitudes - bad, nearly all of them. I'll never forget the hair raising ride I had when the streetcar driver called his wife on his cell and proceeded to have a rip-roaring fight with her. There were moments I thought the streetcar was going to derail, his foot was so firmly pressed against the power pedal. Or the time I got to the doors before they closed, but the driver closed the door right in my face and then reopened them long enough to tell me he'd already pulled away from the stop (which he hadn't because the doors were open when I got there. He'd shut them just as I was raising my foot towards the bottom step).

Miserable, the lot of them.

But I still like streetcars better than buses. I just wish the drivers would, all of them, get an attitude adjustment.

[Myrtone]

Hook turns anyone?

Why don't you just have Melbourne's rules for driving with trams? What we have is fairways, there are some places where you may use the tram lane like a centre turn lane provided that you give way to (don't get in the way of) trams. There are also locations where you get to drive along tram tracks provided you don't delay trams. Also, in the CBD we have what is know as a hook turn. Does anyone here know what that is? Here it is described.
Also, here, and elsewhere in Victoria and all other Australian states and territories except New South Wales and the Northern Territory, there are no free left turns (which would be right turns in Canada) on red lights at all. To the best of my knowledge, turns on red light are almost never permitted in cities with trams, whether this is because of trams nor not is hard to say, but trams can mean more pedestrian traffic (public transport users typically account for pedestrian traffic because they typically need to walk or cycle to and from stops and stations).

[spitfire]

Dandmb50:

I didn't agree with the city's decision for a dedicated right-of-way on St. Clair Avenue West. I thought it was a stupid idea. And now look at the street now. The street is a mess. Traffic on the side residential streets has increased while the sidewalks have decreased in size. There is no space for vehicles, especially emergency vehicles, to move. It takes more time now to travel the street. But what is most upsetting is the fact that many small local businesses went under because the construction eliminated the limited amount of parking spaces that were there to begin with. And the project went well over budget. Yes, debacle is a good description of the St. Clair Avenue streetcar right-of-way.