Why does the TTC even need a union?

[TTCfan666]

So really why do they need one?

Do they need to protect their extremely good deal of being overpaid for the job that they do? Probably.
Does the majority of the TTC workforce provide a skill so indispensable that they should never be let go? Probably f'n not.
So why are we paying bus drivers $26/hr?
Why are we not getting new vehicles into the fleet if the TTC union keeps blocking that?

If you need to unionize to maintain the fact that you're easily replaceable and disposable by any worker equally skilled/qualified for 1/2 of the pay, it'd make sense that you need one.

We have unemployment insurance. The union doesn't help any more than any other canadian citizen.
We have workman's safety and compensation. The union doesn't help any more than anyone else.
We have systems in place to sue your employer if they provide unacceptable working conditions.
We have the Canada Pension Plan. Why should you be paid such ridiculous salaries after you retire for being in the TTC all your life? Why should you be rewarded for not trying to improve your skills/education at all? A Tim Horton's cashier only works that job do pay for probably some sort of schooling so they can get out of Tim Hortons. Why should a TTC booth collector be rewarded with a retirement pension for doing exactly the same job with probably less customer service?

Why are we rewarding mediocrity, laziness, and the lowest standard possible?
And you wonder why developing countries like India and China are totally lapping us in the economic world.

[casper20]

The union has no decision on the purchase of new vehicles, this comes from the government

[ThisIsChris]

WHO? dictates how much someone should be paid anyway..

The market. And trust me, TTC employees are being paid far more than the equilibrium wage.

[lanalaro]

The market. And trust me, TTC employees are being paid far more than the equilibrium wage.

Really? TTC drivers make only a buck or two more than most municipal drivers in Ontario, but carry more people. NYC's MTA bus drivers top rate is $26.92 per hour ($29.06 CDN) plus benifits and perks.

So what is the equilibrium wage for MAJOR city bus drivers. And I don't mean someone who drives the short bus up in Yellowknife.

[annoyed]

[quote="Potato Salad]
Someone sounds jealous.....
You probably could not pass the Training....
Oh wait I hear Tim Hortons calling you..

Lets pay all workers in Toronto $10hr I mean surely ANY job can be done by ANYONE so as long as they are Trained..
WHO? dictates how much someone should be paid anyway..[/quote]


I am so tired of unions crying "jealousy" whenever anyone questions their compensation.

And no, not ANY job can be done by ANYONE so long as they are Trained (with a capital "T"?). Only the unskilled ones can, actually. The rest cannot be covered by on-the-job training. Or would you like to be in the hands of a dentist/doctor/lawyer/accountant who passed his 6-week "Training"? How about an engineer - want some random uneducated guy designing the bridge you drive across? Or the nuclear power plant you live near? What if he passed his Training?

Your job should pay as much as is required to attract and retain workers. If pretty much anyone is willing and able to do your job (just swing a cat, grab somebody and Train them), then it won't pay much. Unions simply distort this by giving their members a monopoly on the work. Not only will they only do it for heightened compensation, but the employer can't hire anyone else at market wages.

[TTCfan666]

The union has no decision on the purchase of new vehicles, this comes from the government

Sure, in one sense this is true; the government is the one to purchase new vehicles. But why would they if it's part of the concessions in the negotiations with the TTC union that initiatives to bring in new vehicles are to be stopped? (ie. they had to make a deal with the union not to get new vehicles in order to avert/stop a strike). I wonder ... have the operators or maintenance workers of the TTC welcomed any government initiatives for new vehicles? Have they initiated any movements towards getting new vehicles? I think not, not according to my sources within the TTC. And hey, while we're at it ... is Bombardier the only company in the world that makes public transit vehicles and for the cheapest price and best quality? I think not. (But that's a different issue and entirely separate of the TTC union)

and I can't stand the self rightous attitude about someone who went to university for 3 yrs deserves to make 10 times what I make..Why because they chose too?
Where does it say that by attending University I'm going to get a good paying job? It doesn't.....

And I can't stand someone getting on average $55K/year for driving a f'n bus all day. It's not that I think I deserve 10x more than you make (despite having substantially more education than you guessed and more responsibility for more people's lives than you've guessed, and no I've never even attempted to join the TTC because I don't want to join a team whose motto is "everyone do as little as possible, do the most barely passable effort as possible, and then no one really has to work hard bcos the standards are so low and you'll still get a raise for crappy work" bcos I actually take pride in my work and would never fit in) ... it's that you shouldn't even be making that much at all. You can try to justify it all you want with safety procedures you're trained on and TTC blah and TTC blah skills that: you still are making way too much for the actual skills you utilize to do your job. You and the whole fleet of TTC workers are costing the city a shitload of money for an inferior product. I and the rest of the TTC ridership have yet to see otherwise.

Show me at all how a) TTC provides exceptional service to justify those inflated wages, b) you can prove that your salary would remain the same if there was an actual competitor in the public transit system instead of this monopoly, and c) that you and every single TTC employee deserves a guaranteed raise each year?

You wanna compare bus driver salaries? A bus conductor in China makes $120US a month.
You wanna compare something real in Toronto? I get better service from immigrants driving cabs and they're easily making on average making less than you.

Anyone can do your job. If you were so indispensable at your jobs, you wouldn't need a union to get raises or to maintain your jobs.
I just hate that unions encourage the minimum effort possible, creating a crappy product ... especially if I've got to pay for the product.
If Toronto has to pay premium price for a company that has a monopoly on a service, one would hope they we'd get a premium product.

But as this site clearly indicates, we are not.

Everyone else in Toronto that isn't in a union (3/4 of Canada's work force) has to bust their asses to be better than the next person to get the raise/promotion before they do. We've got to continually improve ourselves and adapt to an everchanging world market of differing and changing supplies and demands. We've got to prepare our finances to ensure a comfortable retirement. We work hard for the money we earn and the advancement we accomplish.

What do you guys do?
Stay on the TTC payroll until you retire as you've won cash for life.

[annoyed]

Well I figured common sense was implied here..
Of course I would not want a brain surgeon oprating on me with a months training..
I should have said laborers even skilled ones can be done by most people with training..
Anyway I can only assume that the people that are complaining about the wages of a bus driver are unjustly valued themselves..But they chose that path..
and how do you know that bridge or power plant was not designed by post gradutes and supervised by a seasoned professional...
After all the main goal of a campany is to make money...
Look what happened when President Reagan came into office, Capitalism at it's finest...destroyed the Unions million out of work and for what for quick profit for the banks..
Enough I could go on for hours about the things that can happen by cheap labour...

and I can't stand the self rightous attitude about someone who went to university for 3 yrs deserves to make 10 times what I make..Why because they chose too?
Where does it say that by attending University I'm going to get a good paying job? It doesn't.....

Potato Salad:
You may have figured that certain jobs were exempt due to common sense, but I believe your post said something like "why don't we pay everybody $10/hr?". And I have heard union members state that the "race to the bottom" means EVERYBODY will make minimum wage, which is clearly nonsense.

Common sense notwithstanding, you state that you "can't stand the self rightous attitude about someone who went to university for 3 yrs deserves to make 10 times what I make..Why because they chose too?"

First, nobody with a 3-yr degree (excepting nurses) makes that much, and very few people get 3-yr degrees now; the 4-yr (honours) has become the accepted minimum. Second, your dismissal "because they chose to?" ignores 2 important facts: 1) they were capable of acheiving a university degree, which sets them apart from a lot of people. To snif that the only difference between a high school grad and a university grad is that the high school grad didn't "choose that path" is delusional. 2) they also invested a lot of money and several non-earning years into their education. This should offer a wage premium, because otherwise there is no incentive to make those sacrfices, which will result in an uneducated, unskilled population.

You also ask "how do you know that bridge or power plant was not designed by post gradutes and supervised by a seasoned professional"?

A post-graduate is still educated before they even show up at the job, which is better than someone with grade 12 and a month's training. A PEng has 4 years' education ("training") and paper proof that they are smarter than average. I'm fine with my bridge being designed by that guy.

Unionised workers frequently state anyone who feels they are are overpaid are "jealous" and "undervalued", and then smugly state "you chose that path". What they fail to understand is that the path they chose (unskilled labour) only pays that much because of the union. And this is artificial, and therefore precarious. Pittsburg, Cleveland (steelworkers), Detroit (uaw) are full of people bitterly complaining that they are now making minimum wage stocking shelves, because once their unionised job disappeared, it was all they were qualified for.

The "you are jealous/you aren't smart enough to join a union/you are undervalued" argument is fatally flawed. Your original taunt that other posters couldn't pass the Training and have to work at Tim Horton's is ludicrous.

[AJ Todd]

@ annoyed

While I understand what you are saying, I disagree with several points.

nobody with a 3-yr degree (excepting nurses) makes that much

Not true. In many cases people with 3-year degrees are making far more. In fact, many university grads are going back and taking college programs in order to get better prepared for the work force.

1) they were capable of acheiving a university degree, which sets them apart from a lot of people.

Some people that are fully capable of obtaining a university degree simply do not have the resourses to do so. In other cases, they chose college programs better suited to their careers.

To snif that the only difference between a high school grad and a university grad is that the high school grad didn't "choose that path" is delusional.... A PEng has 4 years' education ("training") and paper proof that they are smarter than average.

Just because someone went to university does not make them smart. It only makes them educated. They could have passed with a c- for all I know while someone driving a bus could be a MENSA member.

That said, I agree with the premise of this thread in that TTC Union Members are extremely overpaid in most cases for the level of work and training. Having been a Teamster in the past while working to save money for school, I was appalled at the apathy. There was no incentive at all to do a good job and the only thing that seemed to count for anything was seniority. Even those working in high-tech areas were paid less than drivers with more time in. Ludicrous.

[annoyed]

@ annoyed

While I understand what you are saying, I disagree with several points.

Not true. In many cases people with 3-year degrees are making far more. In fact, many university grads are going back and taking college programs in order to get better prepared for the work force.

Some people that are fully capable of obtaining a university degree simply do not have the resourses to do so. In other cases, they chose college programs better suited to their careers.

Just because someone went to university does not make them smart. It only makes them educated. They could have passed with a c- for all I know while someone driving a bus could be a MENSA member.

That said, I agree with the premise of this thread in that TTC Union Members are extremely overpaid in most cases for the level of work and training. Having been a Teamster in the past while working to save money for school, I was appalled at the apathy. There was no incentive at all to do a good job and the only thing that seemed to count for anything was seniority. Even those working in high-tech areas were paid less than drivers with more time in. Ludicrous.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by 3-yr degree. I was referring to a 3-yr BA or BSc, which is not worth much. Also, I have no idea what you meant by pointing out that lots of university grads go to college post-grad... wouldn't that support my assertion that a non-honours BA is kinda worthless? Don't understand what you were geting at there.

And of course having a degree is not the only measure of intelligence. Yes, there are some pretty mediocre minds that have earned degrees. And sure, the bus driver may be a MENSA member. But I was responding to someone who had dismissed post-secondary education as simply something anyone may (or may not) choose to do. And that just isn't true. Chances are even the PEng with the C+average is smarter than the guy who failed out of grade 11. If you get into university, you already have high grades in highschool. If you get into a Master's program (or law school or med school), you have a really strong undergraduate transcript. Go onto a PhD, you are one of the top people from the Master's program. Yes there will always be exceptions, but as a general rule of thumb, more education = closer to the top of the heap.

[ThisIsChris]

Really? TTC drivers make only a buck or two more than most municipal drivers in Ontario, but carry more people. NYC's MTA bus drivers top rate is $26.92 per hour ($29.06 CDN) plus benifits and perks.

So what is the equilibrium wage for MAJOR city bus drivers. And I don't mean someone who drives the short bus up in Yellowknife.

The equilibrium wage is set at the price where the demand for the position matches the supply; it has nothing to do with an average or median wage. Where markets are allowed to operate (min. wage notwithstanding) free from union intervention, wages for jobs that require a similar skill level are much, much lower.

Think of it this way: Could a booth collector who earns a base salary of $50,000+ annually be replaced by a new employee with similar skill levels for (significantly) less money? I'd bet my last dollar he could. The demand for such a salary, given the position, is much higher than the supply.

[TTCfan666]

Really? TTC drivers make only a buck or two more than most municipal drivers in Ontario, but carry more people. NYC's MTA bus drivers top rate is $26.92 per hour ($29.06 CDN) plus benifits and perks.

So what is the equilibrium wage for MAJOR city bus drivers. And I don't mean someone who drives the short bus up in Yellowknife.

And to add to ThisIsChris's post, I would simply say to you that you are comparing inflated union wages to inflated union wages. Did you read the subject of this thread?
If the TTC doesn't need a union (you know the point of this thread), the MTA similarly doesn't need theirs and should get rid of theirs as well.

In your own words: FAIL

[lanalaro]

The equilibrium wage is set at the price where the demand for the position matches the supply; it has nothing to do with an average or median wage.

1: The TTC is having a hard time filling vacancies at the current wage (supply and demand)
2: The reason the rate is so high is so the TTC can retain the workforce. Any driver would tell you that they would quit the job in a heart beat if the pay and benefits were less. No one would put up with the abuse and family stress for $15.00/h You might as well work in a video store.

Sure, someone would fill in thier position for a lesser wage, but would you retain them? Keep in mind that training a TTC driver costs about $10,000 to $13,000 per employee. If the turn around is high, the transit authority would be losing money.


OK, then why are the supervisors who are currently NON unionized, scrambling to get a CUPE card? They believe that they need a union after 60 years without one?

I'm not arguing with you, I just think that maybe, just maybe, the job isn't as cushy as you think. I don't think I could be a bus driver (I don't even drive), but I could probably be a clip board supervisor line guy!

And to add to ThisIsChris's post, I would simply say to you that you are comparing inflated union wages to inflated union wages. Did you read the subject of this thread?
If the TTC doesn't need a union (you know the point of this thread), the MTA similarly doesn't need theirs and should get rid of theirs as well.

In your own words: FAIL

Well, sorry for compairing apples to apples. If we are going to compair TTC drivers to bus drivers in China making $120.00 a month, then by that logic, teachers should be making $155.00 a month, police officers $75.00 a month, and doctors $300.00 an month.

Once again TTC fan, FAIL!

[TTCfan666]

1: The TTC is having a hard time filling vacancies at the current wage (supply and demand)
2: The reason the rate is so high is so the TTC can retain the workforce. Any driver would tell you that they would quit the job in a heart beat if the pay and benefits were less. No one would put up with the abuse and family stress for $15.00/h You might as well work in a video store.

Sure, someone would fill in thier position for a lesser wage, but would you retain them? Keep in mind that training a TTC driver costs about $10,000 to $13,000 per employee. If the turn around is high, the transit authority would be losing money.


OK, then why are the supervisors who are currently NON unionized, scrambling to get a CUPE card? They believe that they need a union after 60 years without one?

I'm not arguing with you, I just think that maybe, just maybe, the job isn't as cushy as you think. I don't think I could be a bus driver (I don't even drive), but I could probably be a clip board supervisor line guy!

These are interesting "stats", what's your source?
I have an inherent distrust of TTC "costs" being real and not inflated. There's probably a way to cut that cost easily, the TTC just doesn't do it.
Other lower skilled industries have ABSOLUTELY no problem with high turnaround and turning profit. There are Old Navies, Gaps, Burger King, Domino's Pizza delivery, Tour bus operators, Amusement Parks (operating machinery requiring training for operation and life safety), Resorts, Marinas, restaurants, and pubs etc that are peopled by young workers that don't stay for their entire lives. They work the job to pay their bills while figuring out what they really want to do with their lives. Why should the TTC be any different?

Besides, don't make me laugh about your concerns about "making money". It's not in the TTC interest to make money or else they wouldn't get any government subsidies.
If the TTC was any other service with competitor companies, no union (edit* meaning paying their employees what they're currently paying whilst not having the inherent government protection of those jobs regardless of the service's perpetual money losses *end edit), and no government subsidies... the TTC would be a complete failure and out of business. This year, queen's park is coughing up $238 million to go against the TTC debt. Your 2010 budget is $1.4 billion, your revenue last year was $940 million ... do the math. And unfortunately I don't have time to dig up the % of the 2010 budget that is salaries, but it's quite substantial, ginormous even. Paying a cheaper workforce be they younger or landed immigrant would save the TTC from being the deficit hog that it currently is. You're not worth what we're paying you, you'd see that if you and every other public transit system in North America didn't have a union to protect your inflated salaries.

And regarding the supervisors wanting a CUPE card is simply wanting to grab more money from the fat money cow that is the TTC. And when I say fat money cow, I mean a company eternally losing money with inflated salaries but is kept running by LARGE government subsidies. (Not meaning that you're actually turning a profit).

Well, sorry for compairing apples to apples. If we are going to compair TTC drivers to bus drivers in China making $120.00 a month, then by that logic, teachers should be making $155.00 a month, police officers $75.00 a month, and doctors $300.00 an month.

Once again TTC fan, FAIL!

I'll address this later. Gotta go.

[TTCfan666]

Doublepost, due to having to go to see the hockey game.

Well, sorry for compairing apples to apples. If we are going to compair TTC drivers to bus drivers in China making $120.00 a month, then by that logic, teachers should be making $155.00 a month, police officers $75.00 a month, and doctors $300.00 an month.

Once again TTC fan, FAIL!

Sure that's a valid point, but I actually wasn't implying that a Canadian bus driver's wage should be that low just that a bus driver's job is not as lucrative across the world.

Furthermore, I've always respected the sheer efficiency of the Chinese. It's part of their culture, their work ethic, they way they are. I don't necessarily agree with all that they do as a country and a government but I can see the efficiency inherent in their doings and respect that.
If you look at the wages in China, you can see exactly what a job's wage should be in comparison to others.

Chinese wages:
Baker $76/month - I wouldn't expect this to be high at all. A dime a dozen. Lots of bakers, easy to learn.
Chambermaid $97/month - This I wouldn't expect to be high either. Dirty, low-skilled, low-prestige labour.
Bus Conductor $120/month
Carpenter $125/month - a skill level higher than a baker for sure, and something I'd equivocate to a bus driver's skill level
Accountant $165/month - requires college/university. I'd expect this to be more than manual labour or driving a bus.
Office Clerk $179/month - a job probably requiring college/university training. A job with more prestige than either carpenter or bus driver, I'd expect this to pay more.
Professional Nurse $187/month - again a job requiring college/university training. Responsible for the immediate health care of patients.
Engineer $252/month - not only a job requiring college/university but also a higher level of difficulty of university education
Airline Pilot $761/month - again nothing surprising here. A pilot is a highly skilled job, responsible for many lives, with great prestige.

But here with the TTC, you've got bus drivers and booth collectors making more than all those jobs listed above with the exception of airline pilots. You've got "$2.8 million (in the 2010 operating budget) to hire 23 more janitors to keep subway stations clean and free of gum" meaning $120K spent on each. I love how union people always defend themselves as it being an unglamorous job. So the F what.
If people in Toronto will work minimum wage to be a dishpig in a restaurant, a Mcdonald's fry cook or drive-thru, a Canada's wonderland ride operator ... I'll bet that I can fill all the TTC operator and booth collector jobs for $15/hr ($12/hr for the booth collector) easy.

The TTC workforce is generally overpaid for what they do. Any idiot can see that.

[imlovingIT]

Ok there "TTCfan". You have fun with that.. TTC can't even fill all the spots they have now at the current wage you think you could hire a full staff of "competent" drivers at $15/hr.??!!?? I know you are probably going to come back with some sort of smart alec, dumb ass reply, so I won't even say any more. Good luck, you'd need it!

[TTCfan666]

Ok there "TTCfan". You have fun with that.. TTC can't even fill all the spots they have now at the current wage you think you could hire a full staff of "competent" drivers at $15/hr.??!!?? I know you are probably going to come back with some sort of smart alec, dumb ass reply, so I won't even say any more. Good luck, you'd need it!

So just because the members of the TTC union think it's impossible, then it is? I'll admit, I'm not familiar with what silly hoops you guys have got to go through but I just looked up what a Greyhound Bus Operator makes on average and that's about $20/hr from what I could find. Extremely similar job, 23% less on wages on average. So already I can cut that wage down to $20/hr. Besides, if you read my post, you'd see my thoughts of filling those positions was with a younger or immigrant-based disposable workforce with high turnover ... you know, how MOST low-skilled jobs in Canada work?
And please don't try to claim you peeps are competent. If you were so blatantly competent, I wouldn't have this website for my soapbox to air my grievances. You're clearly not getting the job done well. That much is obvious.

PS. Only people with no good arguments bail out with "I know you are probably going to come back with some sort of smart alec, dumb ass reply, so I won't even say any more". It's sucks that I'm right and you can't prove me wrong, doesn't it?

I wonder if the guy has the smarts to apply for a position as an operator/collector. If he can conjure this whole thing up, he should be able to submit a resume as an operator.

If he was smart, he would. That way, if he gets hired, he doesn't have to bitch and whine anymore!

IMO, the collectors should have a reduced wage than the operators. Operators have a lot more responsibility on their hands than the collectors.

By the so called "fan's" post, any idiot can see the TTC workforce is overpaid, then, any smart person can see that they're not; yet you're constantly talking about operators/collectors. How about the janitorial staff, maintenance staff, mechanics, people who work at head office, etc. Operators, IMO, get their pays worth. Especially when they have to deal with traffic and dumbass riders who just rip on the operator because of something they failed to do.

And what the hell does the Chinese have to do with anything?! I thought we were talking about the wages of operators and collectors, not the Chinese work ethics. You're not going to go anywhere with that.

That's all I'm going to say.

Well, as I don't intend to post any more personal information than I already have (as it states on every part of this website), all I can say is that if anyone was in my position right now, they'd never even remotely consider applying to the TTC. Higher salary, higher prestige. End of story. The difference between me (as well as the rest of non-unionized labour in Canada at about 75%) and you guys is that I busted my balls to get my raises and promotions. You peeps just didn't quit your jobs. You could've and probably did the least possible effort for the entire time you worked for the TTC and got your guaranteed raises regardless of merit. I could never deal with a job with such inefficiencies inherent in its workings. Similarly, it's hard for me to deal with paying for a service with such inefficiencies and failings inherent in its workings.

The reason I'm "bitching" on this soapbox is in the vain hopes to wake the people up of Toronto. We're paying too much for the TTC. The numbers are right there for anyone to see. Any normal company with a budget of $1.4 billion and a revenue of $940 million would at the VERY least get a efficiency consultant (of course, normally, the TTC would've just gone under). I'm hoping to generate enough informed and justified anger to the point that something is actually going to be done.

I'm also only talking about operators and booth collectors simply because those are the jobs I have hard numbers and information on. I don't pull statistics out of my ass. I do my research. I look at the numbers. And I know what's involved with being a bus driver and a booth collector, as I've seen it first hand. Therefore, I don't talk about stuff I don't have information on. That said, I'm very sure that a TTC mechanic has it made compared to a car mechanic. One guy has to learn how to fix only a few types of vehicles (especially with all the stalled attempts by the government to get new vehicles in the fleet); the other guy has to learn all cars on the market and all new incoming cars as well. Even if they were paid the same wage (which I highly doubt as I haven't looked into it), one guy's got Easy Street ... the other guy does not.

And boo hoo, you've got riders ripping into you as you sit on your ass with the capability of making over $100K. Boohoo the f hoo. Poor you. Life sucks. Cry me a river. It must suck to be able to make more money than the majority of your TTC ridership. My heart goes out to you.

And again, reading comprehension is not strong with some of you. I brought up the Chinese to show what a non-unionized environment pays for different jobs of different skill levels. You know, the whole thing of showing what you'd be paid on a RELATIVE scale had you not had a union? (I put "relative" there in caps because perhaps you were unaware that I demonstrated various jobs with different associated pay and skill levels and implied that if you equated them to Canadian wages (ie. multiplied them up to our standard of living) you could see where a bus driver should be without a union to protect an abnormally high wage)

The point is that you are getting overpaid for the level of skill you provide. A unionized scenario doesn't see that necessarily (especially if you've been indoctrinated for years by union propaganda), but a non-unionized environment sees you for exactly what you are, what skills you provide, and what % of the population can provide these skills, and pays you accordingly.

The vast majority of Canada is fine without a union. The TTC is no different. There's nothing exceptional about your situation to warrant the need for a union at all. None of you have been able to prove otherwise. All you've got is a weak claim that you can't fill the jobs as is. If that's the case, then the TTC is doing something wrong. If you can't fill a bus driver's position that's capable of making $100K, you're definitely doing something wrong. That's like telling me that managers of McDonald'ses can make over $100K simply because there's not enough people applying to the position and you need a union to keep that high wage to get the few people available to work. B Fn S.

If the TTC went belly up and the TTC had no jobs. Where would you be? Will you be packing shelves at Loblaws because that's the highest skill level you can provide? Annoyed points out nicely what happens when a union dissolves:

Pittsburg, Cleveland (steelworkers), Detroit (uaw) are full of people bitterly complaining that they are now making minimum wage stocking shelves, because once their unionised job disappeared, it was all they were qualified for.

[overpayme]

Fan, you obviously take the time to make a well thought out argument and present some interesting facts to ponder. However, you fail to address some of the key points in the arguments of others. For example, were you to reduce the wages to the $15-20/hr range that you suggest there would be such a low employee retention rate that any savings resulting from the lowere wage would be lost in training. This is not a restaurant, resort or marina as you suggested earlier. There are not thousands of 21 year old college kids walking around with class A,B or C licenses ready to fill in for 6 months or a year while they find themselves. Would you really spend between 1 and 2 months training someone who in all likelihood will walk away in a year.

The Toronto Police Service actually had to initiate a program called Retention Pay for its uniformed members. This was as a result of literally hundreds of their officers getting hired and taking training from TPS and within a year or two taking jobs at smaller regional and community forces with less stress and danger. Who could blame them? They are now actually paying a premium to those members that stay with Toronto because they know the premium is less than the cost of hiring and training new officers only to go through the same scenario again.The TTC has it's own school to license and train it's operators and I would wager many people would take the training and then quit and move on with their newly upgraded license to something they perceive as less stressful and better for their family life.

I also tire of people who just assume that their education level makes them somehow able to stand in judgement of what I should earn. I am a well educated person who for various reasons ended up at the TTC as opposed to working in my chosen field. Now that I have the opportunity to help train prospective drivers I find that the new generation of TTC employees is quite diverse and well educated. From engineers, nurses, paralegals, police officers, small business owners and big business executives. You would be very surprised, I think, to find out who that person is behind the wheel and why they ended up there. You do us all a disservice by standing on your high moral ground and dictating what you think I deserve. Tell me sir, when is the last time a body fell from the ceiling of your office and landed on your desk, impaling itself on your Mont Blanc? When is the last time you led 1000 hot, scared and upset subway passengers on a 1km walk through a darkened subway tunnel to daylight and safety? What is the dollar figure you place on these things things (amongst others) that have been a part of my 13 year career. What you see in your 20 minute bus or train ride is not all there is to the job.

I am paid fairly for the service I provide and am comfortable in knowing my passengers receive the best I can deliver each day. But make no mistake, there is no way I would do the job for the wage you tell me I'm worth.

[TTCfan666]

Apologies for the late reply. I had one of those weeks: work, eat, sleep, repeat.

For example, were you to reduce the wages to the $15-20/hr range that you suggest there would be such a low employee retention rate that any savings resulting from the lowere wage would be lost in training. This is not a restaurant, resort or marina as you suggested earlier. There are not thousands of 21 year old college kids walking around with class A,B or C licenses ready to fill in for 6 months or a year while they find themselves. Would you really spend between 1 and 2 months training someone who in all likelihood will walk away in a year.

Again, you over-exaggerate the TTC skills and underplay what the rest of the non-unionized labour does and how it works. Just bcos the TTC can’t seem to do it, doesn’t mean it’s impossible. When I compare TTC workers to other jobs, I imply similar jobs to similar jobs. For example, I would compare a Tim Horton’s cashier to a TTC booth collector. Their jobs are similar as well as the potential volume of customers. The skill level required is identical. And yet one job pays ridiculously more than the other. As for a car mechanic and TTC mechanic, the easy comparison is there: one guy’s got it easy, the other guy completely not in comparison for less pay. As for a marina or an amusement park, I brought that up specifically to equate any operator that drives more than a bus. An amusement park ride can be highly dangerous and safety is of the utmost importance. A marina you can be trained on forklifts, backhoes, and tractors (I know I worked several summers at one); these machines require exactly that extra certification you were talking about and yet a student working at a marina or amusement park gets paid extremely less than TTC operators. There is indeed a risk that someone you train will walk away in a year. From my various jobs working to pay for school, that was the exception not the norm. Normally, students get a job and keep it for the entire duration of their student career if the money suffices (high turnover jobs like restaurant/pubs not included). Anyone I’ve known to work at an amusement park, resort, or marina usually work there for usually 3- 4 years if not more bcos the employer made just enough raises to justify staying.

It’s a fact that every other non-unionized low-skilled industry has managed to do so. Most of our lower-skilled industries are peopled by landed immigrants and students. And they have a certain turnover rate, but they manage with it. Just bcos the TTC says it can’t, just means you’ve got a)incompetence at your management level or b)a union. Besides, a month/two month training is more training than a restaurant for sure, but not entirely abnormal. I had to train on the forklift for at least a month before I actually moved any boats. And I didn’t leave anytime soon simply bcos it paid what it needed to pay for my schooling.

The Toronto Police Service actually had to initiate a program called Retention Pay for its uniformed members. This was as a result of literally hundreds of their officers getting hired and taking training from TPS and within a year or two taking jobs at smaller regional and community forces with less stress and danger. Who could blame them? They are now actually paying a premium to those members that stay with Toronto because they know the premium is less than the cost of hiring and training new officers only to go through the same scenario again.The TTC has it's own school to license and train it's operators and I would wager many people would take the training and then quit and move on with their newly upgraded license to something they perceive as less stressful and better for their family life.

OMG please don’t compare yourselves to police. You DO NOT PUT YOUR LIVES IN RISK for your job. Paying a premium for employee retention is not new: they’re called “raises”. You get them when you’ve done an above average or an outstanding job. You may not be familiar with the concept. That’s okay.
The fact that they can keep the trucking companies, Greyhound Bus service as well as all the gajillion tour and charter buses running seems to me proof that the TTC operators alone can be replaced for a) lower pay and b) still have enough skilled-enough people to work the job.

But what made me laugh was the whole idea of TTC training and the EXPENSIVE cost of training an operator. You realize that you guys are kinda doing it completely ass-backwards right? People usually PAY to learn the skills they need for a job that pays more than the Canadian average. The job may teach them their nuances specific to the job, but the basic training is paid for by the prospective employee on their own dollar. Do hospitals train their doctors from scratch? Hellz no. Do taxi companies train their drivers to drive from scratch? Gawd no. Do companies usually even like to pay for their employees to get trained/certified on anything? Absolutely f'n not.

You’ve actually got a possible gold mine right there to generate revenue. With word on the street being that TTC operators make lots of dough, if you opened up a school that people paid for the school to learn and to be tested … you’d save a shit ton of money. For a job that requires little training, no that wouldn’t work like Tim Horton's cashier or Burger King fry cook. But for a job that requires a certain level of certification: let your average Joe and Jane (not on the TTC payroll) pay for their own TTC certification (I don't know why it can't be a general certification for vehicle operation and not something specifically TTC branded). If they fail, the TTC loses no money and in fact has their tuition money for the TTC school. And if they pass, they can apply.

Hell, you could even just rent out the streetcars/subways/buses for schools (plural) to rent and administer their own schools using TTC trained instructors.

But as it is, the TTC has to pay to train its employees, pay the instructors, pay for the testing, and lose all that investment should the TTC employee fail … which I’m told by your own guys on this board that its about 55%. You guys are totally doing it the wrong way to the point that it seems completely on purpose. You’re dumping and losing money on training that you could easily be MAKING money on as well as increasing your supply of skilled TTC operators which would mean you could get away with paying TTC operators less money as you’d have a bigger supply.

Oh wait, that’s completely against what you guys want. Lower salaries. It’s in a TTC operator’s best interest that the supply is limited so their pay is high. So a 55% fail rating for TTC operator certification would actually help continue this situation. Are you sure you guys aren’t making it hard on purpose? Bcos the very fact that you need a “TTC” brand certification makes me think you’re purposefully trying to do it the most expensive way possible as part of a concerted effort to ensure the TTC is running a deficit requiring the city to pony up a large subsidy as well as keeping the TTC operator pool less populated.

I also tire of people who just assume that their education level makes them somehow able to stand in judgement of what I should earn. I am a well educated person who for various reasons ended up at the TTC as opposed to working in my chosen field. Now that I have the opportunity to help train prospective drivers I find that the new generation of TTC employees is quite diverse and well educated. From engineers, nurses, paralegals, police officers, small business owners and big business executives. You would be very surprised, I think, to find out who that person is behind the wheel and why they ended up there. You do us all a disservice by standing on your high moral ground and dictating what you think I deserve. Tell me sir, when is the last time a body fell from the ceiling of your office and landed on your desk, impaling itself on your Mont Blanc? When is the last time you led 1000 hot, scared and upset subway passengers on a 1km walk through a darkened subway tunnel to daylight and safety? What is the dollar figure you place on these things things (amongst others) that have been a part of my 13 year career. What you see in your 20 minute bus or train ride is not all there is to the job.

I am paid fairly for the service I provide and am comfortable in knowing my passengers receive the best I can deliver each day. But make no mistake, there is no way I would do the job for the wage you tell me I'm worth.

And why should I care if you’ve got more education than the job you are doing? If a PhD in astrophysics was a fry cook at McDonald’s making me some McNuggets … why should I a) pay twice as much for the nuggets or b)treat him/her with any more respect I would give a frycook? You people made a choice to do a less respected job than your chosen field. So, it’s not my fault or anybody else’s that people don’t treat you like your resume says you should be treated. Like my favourite saying goes when I was a camp councilor: “Not my camper, not my problem.”

Why are “engineers, nurses, paralegals, police officers, small business owners and big business executive “ people lining up to be TTC workers? Again, isn’t that COMPLETELY ASS-BACKWARDS?That’s proof in itself the system is fucked. Why in the hell would people with better educations go for a job requiring significantly less skill/training? As a society, I would say that’s a sign that we are going backwards in our progress. As a society, that’s completely the opposite of what we want. We want a more educated populace not less. Only with the TTC union, being the pocket of absurdity in an otherwise normal capitalistic survival of the fittest economic world that we live in, can we see educated people lining up to do a lower-skilled job.

As for the bit about jumpers: on one level, I can sympathize. The amount of suicides (jumpers be they early or late ones) is completely unadvertised and unaddressed by the media. Torontonians are kept mostly in the dark about the sheer number of suicides. And yes, I can imagine it being traumatic for a TTC operator to witness in that front booth … someone taking their own life in front of them, and sit and wait while the blood is washed off the subway car.

But on the other hand, I still don’t think that justifies such high salaries. Traumatic things can happen on the job. If you’re a fast food restaurant worker in a poor neighbourhood, you may deal with unsavoury customers all day … you may have even had a gun to your face in a robbery. If you were on the way to work under the Bloor Viaduct before the luminous veil went up, you may have been that unlucky one to feel the consequences of a falling suicide on the highway. If you’ve been a bouncer at a club, you may have witnessed someone getting shot or worse, you were the target. Or if you were an amusement park operator, you may have been working that ride where a person had their leg severed off due to a cable being in the way or any number of unpublicized ride-related malfunction deaths or injuries. And this is where I’m going to say something very cold: if their salaries weren’t increased due to traumatic experiences … why should yours? Shit happens. Unless your main job is to deal specifically with traumatic experiences, I don’t see why any company should pay anyone more for the spikes of badness that happen now and again on a crap job if you're unlucky.



In the end, I don’t want you to do the job for the wage I say you’re worth: you’re right.

I want someone willing to work not a union worker who gets raises regardless of job performance.

[shortturning]

here's a quick question to answer.Would everyone be complaining about wages etc...if we weren't unionized and recieved this pay curtisy of the employer?Meaning my boss at the TTC makes $270,000/yr has worked there for over 35yrs and most likely does not have the knowledege of a ceo of other huge companies,but still makes more than the mayor of this city,who is actually his boss! Figure that one! Yet ppl fail to mention that he would not take any paycut and would probably laugh at the mere mention of a pay cut.Hell his secretary makes more than an operator.Most non union employees at the TTC make more than an operator,yet without an operator where would the money come from? Besides janitors at the TTC operators are the lowest pay/hr wage group 7. Yet we always are to blame for inreases,we take the shit from everyone about anything.Rate/hr operators are the 2nd lowest paid and you ppl want me to take a pay cut. Start from the top and work your way down,then we'll talk.

[overpayme]

Fan, first thing is never once in my post did I compare my job to that of a police officer. If you can show me where I did I would be delighted. I know exactly what a Toronto police officer puts on the line everyday, my wife is one. The point was strictly about job retention and your proposed cost savings. No more, no less. Although I do know several operators and their families that would challenge your contention that our lives aren't occasionally put on the line as a part of our jobs.

As far as training at the TTC goe,s where exactly do you propose TTC operators become pre -qualified to operate streetcars and subways? Is there a training course at your local community college? People are already complaining about crowded streets and slow subway service not to mention a lack of equipment to maintain service levels. Do you really think there is room out there on the rails for private companies to offer streetcar and subway training? Please get real.

My point about education is that I do not stand in judgement of others merely based on my level of education opposed to theirs. Several posters on this board seem to do just that. You make my point when you say I "made a choice to do a less respected job". I see what I am to you now. I'll just shut up and take what you dish out sir as I am obviously not deserving of your respect.

Perhaps the answer to your queries lies in your own final line. You may want a lower paid, non-unionized TTC but you will not find it. The reason sir is because a staff willing to put up with the disrespect you so wilfully dish out for half the pay does not exist.

[TTCfan666]

here's a quick question to answer.Would everyone be complaining about wages etc...if we weren't unionized and recieved this pay curtisy of the employer?Meaning my boss at the TTC makes $270,000/yr has worked there for over 35yrs and most likely does not have the knowledege of a ceo of other huge companies,but still makes more than the mayor of this city,who is actually his boss! Figure that one! Yet ppl fail to mention that he would not take any paycut and would probably laugh at the mere mention of a pay cut.Hell his secretary makes more than an operator.Most non union employees at the TTC make more than an operator,yet without an operator where would the money come from? Besides janitors at the TTC operators are the lowest pay/hr wage group 7. Yet we always are to blame for inreases,we take the shit from everyone about anything.Rate/hr operators are the 2nd lowest paid and you ppl want me to take a pay cut. Start from the top and work your way down,then we'll talk.

In short, no. People probably wouldn't be complaining. If the company was making enough money to pay its employees exactly what they're paying you, then everything would make capitalistic sense. But unfortunately, you work for a company that is funded by city government subsidy. Meaning not only are Torontonians your sole customer base, we also pay for every shortfall your company makes.
The TTC is a poorly run outfit. You don’t really need to be an efficiency expert to see that in just the 2010 TTC operating budget alone. But hiring one may not be such a bad idea.
I agree with you that your boss makes a disgusting amount for a company whose 2009 revenue is 33% short of its 2010 operating budget. That’s HUUUUUGE. In any normal company, that company would be bankrupt. What I’m suggesting is a complete overhaul of the TTC. From top to bottom. The wages are disproportionate for everybody. But lowering the salaries of the bulk of workers is a considerably larger chunk of change compared to lowering the pay of just your boss and his secretary.

Fan, first thing is never once in my post did I compare my job to that of a police officer. If you can show me where I did I would be delighted. I know exactly what a Toronto police officer puts on the line everyday, my wife is one. The point was strictly about job retention and your proposed cost savings. No more, no less. Although I do know several operators and their families that would challenge your contention that our lives aren't occasionally put on the line as a part of our jobs.

Considering the TTC is being debated as an “essential service”, any comparison of police to TTC would be interpreted as a comparison as a whole … not necessarily specifically worker retention. The mere mention of higher risk/stress implied that TTC workers suffer along a similar vein to justify your high salaries. And you clearly didn’t get that part of other jobs and other people whose lives are put on the line by sheer bad luck (bouncers example, robbery at fast food restaurant example). Your situation at the TTC is not exceptional. You are not the only people who deal with lots of people thinking only of themselves every day. You are not the only people doing an inherently unrewarding job. And you are definitely not the best bus drivers in Canada, and yet it seems like you are paid like you are.

As far as training at the TTC goe,s where exactly do you propose TTC operators become pre -qualified to operate streetcars and subways? Is there a training course at your local community college? People are already complaining about crowded streets and slow subway service not to mention a lack of equipment to maintain service levels. Do you really think there is room out there on the rails for private companies to offer streetcar and subway training? Please get real.

Oh please.
Buses: do not need any scheduling concerns
Streetcars: You have plenty of opportunity for track once prime time is over. If you can schedule streetcars to be once every 5-10 minutes in rush hour, I’m sure you can schedule the same amount of streetcars at night. Just space the training cars with that big red training sign in between live streetcars. Plus with some maintenance you could restore tracks currently unused and just train on them.
Subways: A little more tricky if you were a 24hour outfit. But you’re not. It’s a tough school schedule but I believe there’s a nice window from 2am – 6am for anyone to use the tracks and subway cars. It would definitely bring new meaning to “night course”.

My point about education is that I do not stand in judgement of others merely based on my level of education opposed to theirs. Several posters on this board seem to do just that. You make my point when you say I "made a choice to do a less respected job". I see what I am to you now. I'll just shut up and take what you dish out sir as I am obviously not deserving of your respect.

Heh, I knew that line would sting a bit. I was just using the same line of your fellow TTCer Potato Salad.

Anyway I can only assume that the people that are complaining about the wages of a bus driver are unjustly valued themselves..But they chose that path..

If people choose a path to be in more respected field for less money, then that means similarly people can choose to make more money for less respect. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Of course, the term “less respected” stings. And you must think I’m one of the most unruly and rude customers who use your system. I’m not. I say thank you all the time and treat operator and booth operate alike with civility. I give them manners bcos I have them. And I give them to fellow people. I can’t say the same for all TTC workers and I’ll be honest all TTC riders as well.

But when it comes to “respect” with a capital “R”, why would anyone respect an operator or booth collector (again the front staff of the TTC, not trying to single them out … just the only positions we come into contact with)? They’re not doctors. They’re not firefighters. They’re not military. They’re not pilots. A bus driver or cashier has never been a well-respected job and never will be.
Don’t blame me, blame society.

All the little kids who take the school bus to school in Canada… between the school bus driver and the teacher, who do you think their parents told them to listen to more than the other? The teacher of course. Listen to the teacher. Why the F would that change as we grow into adulthood? In adulthood, you learn that a school teacher needs an undergraduate degree as well as a teaching degree for that extra year. That’s 5 years for anyone counting. And how long again was that big bad TTC operator training course? 1 to 2 months? What world do you live in to think that a job requiring 1-2 months training would ever be a highly respected job?

Me saying that the job is a less respected job is me just stating how things are. Trapped on a desert island, who would the average person more likely to listen to right off the batt: the cashier, the bus driver, the janitor, the baker, or the doctor? The doctor has the most respect as a profession and would be treated with that instant respect inherent in the title. Whether or not he/she would even remotely know what to do is another story. We’ll find out on the next episode of Lost.

How many parents want their kids to be doctors or lawyers? And how many parents want their kids to be bus drivers? Again, not my fault that society has branded jobs with a hierarchy of respect and that yours is one of the lower rungs of that ladder.
You want the TTC ridership to treat you better?
Here are a few tips:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=530

Perhaps the answer to your queries lies in your own final line. You may want a lower paid, non-unionized TTC but you will not find it. The reason sir is because a staff willing to put up with the disrespect you so wilfully dish out for half the pay does not exist.

And again, you somehow think your job is so exceptional to justify your pay.
There are people all over Toronto who deal with more shit, less respect for significantly less pay and yet somehow are able to keep up a level of professionalism that the TTC cannot muster. Just bcos you say it can’t be done, doesn’t mean it can’t. I’ll bet that every dishpig in every restaurant in Toronto would sign up for free training on vehicles to make twice the minimum wage they are making (which is still substantially lower than your current pay). (I’ve been a dishwasher before: people rarely treat servers with respect … do you really think the servers treat the dishwasher any better considering it’s the lowest position in the restaurant?)
That’s easily the whole TTC roster right there. And that’s just recruiting from one pool among many. You’d be amazed at how hard immigrants can work and for what little pay. Just because you may not want to work for less doesn’t mean that someone else won’t.
Work ethic: some people have it, some people don't. From what I've seen of the TTC, you guys generally don't (generally means not everybody).

I really don't want to argue this point but you have to agree playing the odds that there would be more "rude" customers than "rude" TTC employees?
Another thing the TTC cannot afford a high turn around rate by paying minimum wages, do you really think a fresh driver making $10-15hr is going to take the insults/abuse from us customers because he politely asked a passenger for proper fare, I have myself seen this type of behavior from customers many times over..
That rookie at the first sign of trouble is going to get up from his seat and say f*** this they can't pay me enough to do this crap..
But like you say it is a "LESS RESPECTED JOB" and why is that I wonder? I mean really wonder why honestly?

Actually, that means one rude TTC rider will affect maybe half a dozen operators and booth collectors and that one rude TTC operator can affect literally hundreds of thousand customers. You wonder why this website exists? The answer is right there. You can go all "chicken or the egg" on that one but at the end of the day, a rude operator affects a massive amount of people in Toronto. And you've got enough rude TTC operators to have TTC backlash making front page of newspapers. You've got cancer within your ranks of TTC workers whether you want to admit it or not.

Again, just because you don't think it can be done, doesn't mean it can't. It just can't be done with the type of people who currently work for the TTC. That, I already knew.

For elaboration of "less respected job", please see above.

[shortturning]

Here here good point potato salad. I think that everyone should take a paycut everywhere.Everyone makes too much money.That grocery store clerk should take a paycut because the milk is way too expensive.The doctors should not make so much because our health care is strained.The tims server should take a paycut because the coffee is too expensive.Get the point and everyone should be an essen service because I want that. Esspecially Tims I need my coffee!!!!And I think I'll start a web site called TTEWAJ....trashtalkeveryonewithajob Sorry folks it was fun while it lasted but the admin of this site has also "left the building"

[GiggidyGoo]

OP, you clearly don't know much about Unions, how they work or any of the sort if you're making this kind of post.

We have unemployment insurance. The union doesn't help any more than any other canadian citizen.
Have you ever BEEN on Unemployment? The payout is laughable. Unions can help with upgrading education in order to re-enter the workforce in the event a job is lost, you're laid off or what have you. They can point you in the right direction to government assistance programs, and help you fill out the appropriate forms and such which is VERY helpful to someone who may not quite be so experienced when filling out government forms. New Canadians, anyone?

We have workman's safety and compensation. The union doesn't help any more than anyone else.
I'll refer again to my above statement about navigating the system. Ever filled out WSIB claim forms? They're a pain in the ass. And what if your employer is a lying sonofabitch and tries to thwart your claim because it'll expose the fact that they're cutting safety corners in order to make more money? How much money makes it worth you losing your arm, finger, leg, or any other part of your body because the employer didn't have an established Health & Safety Committee in your workplace, one that could have been provided extensive training by the Union on how to recognize and fix safety issues in your workplace?

We have systems in place to sue your employer if they provide unacceptable working conditions.
Sure we do - but they're not good enough. And what happens when you can't afford a $500/hr labour lawyer? Come on, have you seriously not given any of this any thought? Or are you simply someone that has never had to use the system, and therefore doesn't know just how tedious, expensive and time-consuming it can be to file a claim? Again, what about new Canadians? People who aren't 100% efficient in the English language? Screw them, right?

We have the Canada Pension Plan. Why should you be paid such ridiculous salaries after you retire for being in the TTC all your life? Why should you be rewarded for not trying to improve your skills/education at all? A Tim Horton's cashier only works that job do pay for probably some sort of schooling so they can get out of Tim Hortons. Why should a TTC booth collector be rewarded with a retirement pension for doing exactly the same job with probably less customer service?
Have you worked at Tim Hortons? Have you worked for the TTC? My bad, you're a professional when it comes to everyone else's jobs and you know exactly what they all entail, right? No one works as hard as you. That person behind the counter at Tim Hortons could never be assumed to be working there part-time to pay for the college or university books they need for the program they're studying during the times which they're NOT at work. That TTC driver definitely doesn't have a mortgage to pay, a kid to feed, or an elderly parent to take care of.

Nothing is ever 100% black or white. There are millions of variations in situations that these people could all be going through. To assume everything is one way just because YOU haven't experienced it is foolish, immature and just plain ignorant.

[TTCfan666]

Apologies, I haven't had time to post here in awhile. Work's been uber-crazy. I'll just address this last post for now.

Have you ever BEEN on Unemployment? The payout is laughable. Unions can help with upgrading education in order to re-enter the workforce in the event a job is lost, you're laid off or what have you. They can point you in the right direction to government assistance programs, and help you fill out the appropriate forms and such which is VERY helpful to someone who may not quite be so experienced when filling out government forms. New Canadians, anyone?

Actually, I have. It is a pain in the ass, but at least it's there. There are many countries in this world that don't have anything remotely close to UI. And when I went on it, I was making a decent enough wage (as well as had budgeted my lifestyle to accommodate the possibility of losing my job) that I could scrape by until I got a new job. And since I've got skills that transcend one solitary company and the skills to do more than one task, I was able to gain employment in a reasonable amount of time. Try working in a third world country and see how many guarantees you've got. We Canadians have it extremely easy here. It's all relative. If one of the hurdles you have is "filling out government forms" and that you need a union to help you understand, that's pathetic. You know that the government already supplies readily accessible information on "filling out government forms". If you just sit down and actually read, it's mostly straightforward. And besides, there's a wealth of information on the internet of common problems. It's not like you're the first person in the history of Canada to go on UI (or pretty much any problem you have in life in general), there's someone on the intermanets that's gone through it and complained.

I'll refer again to my above statement about navigating the system. Ever filled out WSIB claim forms? They're a pain in the ass. And what if your employer is a lying sonofabitch and tries to thwart your claim because it'll expose the fact that they're cutting safety corners in order to make more money? How much money makes it worth you losing your arm, finger, leg, or any other part of your body because the employer didn't have an established Health & Safety Committee in your workplace, one that could have been provided extensive training by the Union on how to recognize and fix safety issues in your workplace?

Again, such information is readily available through government websites and centres. You don't need an f'n union for that. Again, government forms are a pain in the ass, granted, but there's enough FREE information on how to deal with them.

Sure we do - but they're not good enough. And what happens when you can't afford a $500/hr labour lawyer? Come on, have you seriously not given any of this any thought? Or are you simply someone that has never had to use the system, and therefore doesn't know just how tedious, expensive and time-consuming it can be to file a claim? Again, what about new Canadians? People who aren't 100% efficient in the English language? Screw them, right?

Again, check out the information doled out by the government. We are one of the heaviest taxed citizenry in the world ... our money does buy readily accessible information, call centres, etc. now and then go figure.

Have you worked at Tim Hortons? Have you worked for the TTC? My bad, you're a professional when it comes to everyone else's jobs and you know exactly what they all entail, right? No one works as hard as you. That person behind the counter at Tim Hortons could never be assumed to be working there part-time to pay for the college or university books they need for the program they're studying during the times which they're NOT at work. That TTC driver definitely doesn't have a mortgage to pay, a kid to feed, or an elderly parent to take care of.

You assume much. I haven't worked specifically at Tim Hortons but I have worked food retail for years. And yes, that is how I was able to pay for school. And yes, I did it part-time. And what? private sector employees don't have mortgages to pay or kids to feed or parents to take care of? You know, I kept hearing how bad the Ontario autoworkers got it during this last recession. They had mortgages to pay sure, but I bet they bought properties well above their means being a rudimentary factory worker. To expect to work in a factory your entire life on products that your union makes unprofitable to sell on the market because it isn't competitive on the world market is sheer stupidity. Zero sympathy. They should have realized that it wouldn't last forever.

I knew a guy who had an entire crew of union members to oversee/supervise. He offered each and every worker the same thing: he would pay for any and all schooling that his workers enrolled in. Be it finger-painting or an MBA, he would pay for it ... they just had to pay for the books and supplies. You know how many of his union workers took him up on that offer? ZERO. They were more than happy to assume that they could have a lifetime job working in shipping and receiving and expect guaranteed raises every year. That's the mentality that unions breed.

Most unions in Canada breed apathy in both ambition and quality of work which lead to workers who are ungrateful that they have jobs at all let alone well-paid ones.

Nothing is ever 100% black or white. There are millions of variations in situations that these people could all be going through. To assume everything is one way just because YOU haven't experienced it is foolish, immature and just plain ignorant.

Agreed, nothing is ever 100% black or white. To assume that me and my family haven't been through poverty and worked our asses off to get where we are is ignorance on your end, not mine.

[annoyed]

I believe it's about 5 cents of your tax dollar goes to transit, and almost 50 cents goes to healhcare, MAYBE Doctors should take handsome paycuts..
Just because you choose to goto school/had the opportunity for school does that ENTITLE you to make TONS of cash at the tax payers expense..?
I'm sure if everyone could afford a medical degree everyone would become Doctors..
more to come later..

Even if everyone could afford a medical degree, not everyone would become doctors, because not everyone is capable of becoming a doctor. The fact is some people are smarter than others, and to ignore this fact is just silly. Similarly, your characterization that "just because you choose to go to school" ignores the fact that you "choose to" and "are capable of". Smart people might become doctors, the folks who could only handle general classes in highschool will not. Ever. Even if med school is free.